Roland
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Posts posted by Roland
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26 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:
That alone isn´t a problem on it´s own. But after building up a playerbase and than completly turn over to a loot shooter is a problem. Now if they would have communicated that from the beginning that also wouldn´t be a problem. But letting people play for nearly 10 years and than deceiding to turn the game into a loot shooter basically over night is just bad. And yes, i know the legal terms of early access and what it means and that i only have the right to the version at the time of buying. But just because you can, doesn´t autimatically mean you should.
A behaviour like that is yet another reason why more and more people dislike early access. (Not blaming TFP for everything here, just saying the add another reason) They propably won´t go into early access with their next title, but if they do, i am surely not gonna touch it before beta or release.
The real problem is people like you who take an extreme view that the game is now purely a “looter shooter” when in fact it still is very much a hybrid survival, building, exploring, looting, and zombie killing game. Sure, looting got a huge increase in importance to where it cannot be ignored but that doesn’t make the game a “looter shooter” or invalidate the other aspects of the game. Just because you have to scavenge doesn’t mean that’s all there is. Builders can still build and really can spend most of their time in the game building even though they must now do some looting as well.
The emphasis has changed and something that could be ignored completely in the past can’t be ignored any longer but your stance is just ridiculous. The difference between what this game offers vs actual “looter shooters” is still huge.
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6 hours ago, Maharin said:
Yeah, Maharin is a grade A tool! Well, a single use tool that is useless for most everything else.
Man, we REALLY need tool degradation. Once a tool is here it is here to stay forever...
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1 hour ago, Kalen said:
You say you're already skilled enough to make cheesecake.... I'm curious what in the game represents that skill?
The fact that I can do it as soon as I've obtained the recipe.
Then if I put points into cooking in the strength tree, I can cook cheesecake faster and with fewer components because THAT is where my cooking skill increases-- when I spend skillpoints.
1 hour ago, Kalen said:As I mentioned before, what doesn't work, if you think of magazines solely as recipes, is the fact that you find recipes in the exact same order every playthrough. You find stone axe before iron pick before steel pick.... every single playthrough.
It still works but I'll be the first to admit it is artificial and inelegant. There have always been progression gates in this game of one form or another. I see the linear order of recipes as a game enforced gate to protect the progression timeline. If it was purely random and I found the recipe for a tier 5 iron axe on day 1, then there would be quite a lot of subsequent finds that wouldn't matter at all and would be underwhelming as I played. It would be just like when a trader reward jumps you ahead five levels in your weapon and now the next five times you learn a new recipe it doesn't matter. It would also be frustrating because I would have the materials to be able to craft the next higher tier of whatever I knew how to craft now but I probably wouldn't have the parts needed for the more powerful recipe.
Like I said, I can totally see your point of view and understand where you are coming from with why the magazine feels like skill progression and I have no problem with people looking at it that way. I look at it a different way and it makes sense to me. I would much rather have the forced linear order of recipe learning than to go back to being able to craft tier five of every tool once you learned the recipe for a tier 5 stone axe. This is much more satisfying even if it means we are forced to learn the recipes in a particular order in order to protect the fun of finding magazines and learning recipes.
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2 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:
Well the fact that you need to rationalize it to make sense, does speak for itself imo.
I was asked to explain my thinking because people said they couldn't imagine it any other way than skill progression. So I obliged. There was no need in order to make sense of it for myself. It seemed obvious and apparent to me from the very beginning. I didn't flounder trying to come up with some way to explain it all. That seems to be you guys who want it to be skill progression instead of recipes. You can't quite make it fit to make sense of it whereas in my point of view when you think of the magazines purely as recipe acquisition everything makes complete sense. I mean look at @meilodasreh's problem with the food recipes. They think of the magazines as increasing skill and so get hung up on why cooking soup would lead to cooking steak or cheesecake. I just think of them as different recipes and so have never felt any kind of thematic disconnect over the soup to steak connection. I'm not getting more skilled at cooking soup so I can suddenly start baking cheesecakes. I'm already skilled enough to make cheesecakes but I don't have the recipe yet.
2 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:@meilodasreh Yeah, bookstores become the number one target for looting, double dipping is the norm. Crowded Public Servers must be a nightmare i imagine. It´s all about finding magazines fast enough to not fall behind the gamestage.
Huge exaggeration. You would have to walk everywhere and set loot to 25% and only do one quest every other day to actually risk falling behind the gamestage. A normal player playing normally will always be ahead in their personal progression compared to the gamestage and people who do as you describe double-dipping bookstores and focusing 100% on consuming magazines will be so far ahead of gamestage as to make the game completely a cake walk.
I don't know what you think "falling behind the gamestage" means but I don't think it means what you think it means.
Perhaps if you are playing at the hardest difficulty and at 50% loot it might be a struggle to keep up with the game's progression but those settings are there to be challenging. At default or nomad or even warrior, a veteran player should have no problem keeping up with the game's progression without resorting to exploitive tactics to maximize magazine consumption.
I mean if you like rushing your progression then have fun with that but let's not pretend it is actually necessary to rush magazine consumption in order to keep pace with the game.
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3 hours ago, Kalen said:
An interesting thing to say.... this is one of the very large drawbacks of the magazine system. The only way to improve your ability to craft is to loot.
The only way to find recipes, you mean, is to loot or shop for them.
I see the parallel there. My commiseration to anyone who dislikes looting. It is definitely a core game activity now.
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On 10/4/2023 at 4:21 AM, Archael said:
1. Magazines and books, which is learn by looting. Could teach people new perks, like current books and some attribute perks. Some perks from leveling could also be placed as books/magazines.
Most people are okay with crafting recipes being governed by random book finds but are not okay with perks and skills being governed by random book finds. Expanding the books to be the way a player initially learns recipes and perks isn't going to go over very well. There is already a discussion going on where people dislike that it requires finding books to learn the improved versions of each crafting recipe. Add in perks that are currently under the full control of player choice and pacing and they would be livid.
On 10/4/2023 at 4:21 AM, Archael said:2. Leveling. Each lvl player gets skillpoints and can apply those to increase simple stats like damage increase, health regen etc. simmilar to current attribute increase.
No real problem with this other than it makes spending points less exciting. When you spend points to get a brand new skill or ability it feels worthwhile. If you spend points just to increase a stat in an existing skill or ability its fine but not very exciting.
On 10/4/2023 at 4:21 AM, Archael said:3. Doing. When hitting enemy/block or getting hit, would increse characters knowlege about used thing, and with this increase quality and unlock new schematics of used item. Example: using pickaxe for log time, sitting in mine will teach character how to craft better pickaxes (not axes, not shovels). Works simmilar to current magazines but instead of reading its actual doing.
The main weakness I see with learn by doing is the reduced freedom to play the game as you like to play it and instead have to grind activities you may not enjoy simply to improve your stats to the point that it starts being enjoyable. Skillpoint purchasing lets you play doing the activities you enjoy but you can spend points in other areas to improve them to the point where they aren't arduous to do. Mining is a great example. If you hate mining with a stone axe but that is the only way to improve your axe and abilities to the point that you can mine with a steel pickaxe and maintain your stamina while doing so then that isn't a very fun journey. But if you can spend skillpoints to get to that point without being forced to grind mining and then enjoy mining with your better abilities then that is much more enjoyable.
Another weakness of learn by doing is the way that it tends to overwhelm other gameplay loops and become the entire point of playing. Traders are a good example of the current state of the game. Trader and quest progression follows a learn by doing model. Questing gets you better at questing and brings greater rewards all for doing that activity. And what do we see? People complain that questing completely dominates the attention of players and is a must. Questing has ovewhelmed all other gameplay loops because of the power of the LBD incentive it carries. I was around before Alpha 11 which introduced the very first LBD mechanic of crafting to get better at crafting. It was like night and day how previously in Alpha 10 the game was about exploring, building, looting, and killing zombies and then in Alpha 11 it was about sitting around and spam crafting for the first few days to grind up all the tools. Spam crafting overwhelmed every other gameplay loop in the game and attaining top gear as quickly as possible became the whole reason for playing for a lot of people.
I'm not saying that there couldn't be a hybrid system developed that incorporated skillpoints, learn by reading, and learn by doing nor that with some careful limits applied it wouldn't be the best overall system we've ever seen. But there are reasons why not everyone is keen to return to LBD and it isn't purely laziness on the part of the developers that it most likely will never happen.
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On 10/3/2023 at 5:38 AM, meilodasreh said:
one injury shouldn't make other injuries or other debuffs more likely, sounds too much of a snowball/avalanche effect thingy.
But the thing about burning through calories faster would work fine I guess.
Or just a slightly stronger impact on max health/stamina than now may also do the trick.
If armor can make injuries and debuffs less likely I don't see a problem with something else making them more likely. There does need to be a wider variety of them. I wouldn't be against a return of a wellness as long as it is simply a measure of overall well-being and not something that can be gamed up and down by spamming foods and suiciding to fast travel.
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They will remain with Unity for 7 Days to Die.
The next TFP project uses Unreal engine and beyond that we simply don't know what they plan to do.
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3 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:
Okay, so now you're shifting the goalposts. Now magazines aren't recipes, they're pieces of recipes.
Fine. Then let us find "partial magazines" and we have to craft them together into a full magazine to unlock the next step in the crafting line. That would make your initial argument make more sense.
I'm just sharing my thought process and how I view it. If you want to think all the magazines are in mint condition, go for it. As I said, you probably need an actual graphic that shows pieces of each recipe coming together until the whole recipe is found in order to get it but I don't. I've always assumed that the books and magazines provided recipes and schematics. Some books have the whole recipe in one go but other recipes aren't whole until you've searched through a number of magazines.
It's all perspective. You want the magazines to represent skill increases and skill progression. You then make it all work in your mind so that it makes sense as skill progression. The end result is something you don't like because skill progression shouldn't be random.
I want the magazines to represent recipes. I then make it all work out in my mind so that it makes sense as recipes. The end result is something I like because finding recipes among the filth of the wasteland should be random.
As for how the magazines are represented, we can't open the insides to see them. We just see the covers. Many of the book piles lying around look pretty ratty tattered and torn. The setting is post-apocalyptic, dirty, and run-down. Often when we open a shelf that is visually full of books all we get is worthless paper which also is evidence that much of the insides of the book covers shown is worthless unreadable paper.
In my opinion, it is more of a stretch to assume the magazines are whole and pristine rather than partially readable and incomplete. I have been stating all along that I view the magazines as purely sources of recipes--even when it takes 3 magazines to gain one recipe so I haven't moved any goalposts. You said you couldn't imagine why I would see them that way so I provided you with the thematic reason. If you don't find it compelling then just keep right on interpreting things in a way that keeps leading to unfun for you. <shrug>
3 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:Personally, I assume that things in the game are what they tell me they are. I don't try to rationalize things so that they make sense. If they're supposed to be bits of magazines, call them that.
They did tell you. TFP stated that they made the change for the express purpose of decoupling the crafting recipes from the player skill progression. That is what they told you. You ARE rationalizing things to make sense of it the way you want it to be. You want the crafting to still be a skill progression and so you see it that way and then because it is random and you have no control over the pacing of what you see as this aspect of your character progression you call it a bad skill progression design.
So, please, just come to terms with the fact that we are all rationalizing and interpreting this very abstractly represented part of the game the way we want. I'm sorry that your rationalizations lead to confusion over why the game is the way it is and a dislike of the feature. I'm glad that my rationalizations lead me to complete peace with the feature and having it make sense to me. I'm not saying that if you rethink things my way you'll suddenly have fun. I'm saying that I'm having fun with it and don't suffer from any disconnect with how the feature works.
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1 hour ago, Vaeliorin said:
Given that each individual magazine doesn't unlock a new recipe, I don't know how you can see them as anything other than a progression system. If every magazine unlocked a new tier of item, you could certainly make that argument (I'd disagree) but given that most magazines give you little other than progress to the next unlock, claiming that they're individual recipes just doesn't seem to be a tenable position to me.
No problem. This one is simple. It is the apocalypse so any magazines you find are faded, have water damage, are missing pages, etc. If you find 8 copies of the same magazine you might be lucky to piece together whatever is legible or still there to figure out the next recipe. From the very beginning, I imagined the process of sifting through magazines to find bits and pieces of knowledge but I wouldn't have the entire recipe until I had found several copies. I never looked at it like I was reading a magazine and skilling up in knowledge and then reading the magazine again and skilling up in knowledge and then reading it again and skilling up in knowledge until I passed a threshold to where I was skilled enough to craft the next item. Instead, it was pieces of knowledge here and there with never a complete magazine but after finding parts of a few I would have the recipe needed. I've always considered my character skilled enough to craft anything in the game once the recipe was known and there was no progression of becoming more skilled-- it was always finding the recipes or schematics and as soon as I got the recipe I was good enough to craft it.
Now in A21, you can spend skillpoints to become better at crafting. You don't learn recipes from spending points but you become more efficient and faster. This is the first time I have felt like crafting skill has a progression now that we can spend points to become better at crafting. The magazines are just recipes that I didn't know but once I can piece them together through my scavenging and research, I can craft them.
Maybe if there was a puzzle graphic that showed a schematic with four missing pieces and every time you found a magazine it would provide one piece to the puzzle and after four magazines were found the schematic would be complete and the recipe would be unlocked, that would be an easier graphic for those who can't imagine it on their own. To me, piecing together parts of recipes from several partial magazines makes perfect sense with the randomness inherent with looting and enhances looting. The only problem I have with it at this time is the imbalance of high tier quest rewards that are too quickly advanced to which makes the need to find those recipes irrelevant because the trader gave you a better item than you'll be able to craft for days to weeks of game time.
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6 hours ago, Kalen said:
I hear you, but what they call it or what they intend isn't nearly as important as people's perception (at least in terms of people's reception of the feature). They can say that magazines only represent recipes, but when magazines directly control what QL you can craft things at (something that has always been determined by skill in previous alphas), magazine have functionally replaced skills. I honestly can't see how you could see it any other way.
I agree that perception trumps all. As to not understanding how I could possibly see it any other way, let's just say I've gotten good at looking at things from different perspectives. I definitely understand what you are saying and why you are interpreting the magazines as skill progression but I also see it as separate recipes. I am not nearly so bothered by it since I can view the quality levels as simply new recipes. Expanding your view to encompass different viewpoints is a skill that can be learned.
I can see it both ways but I choose to accept that the only actual skill progression in the game are those perks you purchase with skillpoints and everything else is attained by scavenging items and knowledge.
Skillpoints --> skill progression which is deterministic
Magazines --> crafting recipes which is random
Since you can't see it any other way than the one that makes the mechanic distasteful to you, I suppose you're stuck until a mod comes out.
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41 minutes ago, Kalen said:
Yeah, I dont really have a problem with not being able to craft the M60 until I get through the previous tiers because there is clearly a balance component to it. Plus there is a logic that you can't craft a higher tier item until your skill is sufficient. Of course, that just further demonstrates to me that the magazines represent skill as well as recipes.
It just demonstrates the problem in communication that exists. There has been so much misunderstanding about the magazines that it isn't surprising that people still think magazines represent skill progression. That's not their intended design but that's really neither here nor there. If a player can't help but think of it as skill progression and doesn't like that they have no control over the pace at which they grow in their skill, then it doesn't really matter that they are seen purely as recipe acquisition by the developers. They have forced a linear progression to which recipes you can acquire for sure.
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11 minutes ago, Kalen said:
I would agree if you could suddenly find a QL5 recipe. You can't though, you have to progress through QL1-4 first, which to me sounds more like a skill than a recipe.
That's a good point. It is still open to interpretation and each player will see it the way they wish. But I will point out that you must find the recipe for an AK-47 before you can find the recipe for an M-60 and you said you have no problem with the first time you gain the M-60 recipe.
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2 hours ago, Kalen said:
The ability to craft a M60 is a recipe
The ability to craft a QL5 M60 instead of a QL2 M60 is a crafting skill
I'm fine with the first one being random, based on the magazines you find. I don't like that the second one is also RNG based.
I don't agree. They are both recipes that require a different number of ingredients. There is no difference between knowing how to make an Assault Rifle and then finding a recipe for an M60 and suddenly knowing how to make that compared to knowing how to make a brown M60 and then finding a recipe for an orange M60. They are all schematics you are learning. You are the one who is interpreting that new recipe as a skill increase in crafting. If TFP changed it so that every increase was a different gun but the stats were exactly the same and only the visual representation and name of the weapon in your hands was different would you suddenly be fine with each new recipe?
I've never viewed any of the recipes as a skill increase. I've always seen them as better schematics to build a better gun even if it is called the same gun and looks the same in my hands on-screen. I don't see the magazine system as a skill-increasing system at all. It is a schematic-acquiring system and it is an alternative to finding or buying weapons. Would you call it a skill increase in shopping if you purchased a brown M60 on day 45 but then purchased an orange M60 on day 47? No, those were two different guns of the same model and you purchased both of them when they were available. Same thing with crafting. You have a recipe for a brown M60 and you craft it. Later you piece together notes from several other magazines and find the recipe for an orange M60 so you craft it.
There is no skill progression in crafting other than what you can deterministically enact by buying skill points that increase speed and decrease material costs for crafting. Those are your skill advancements in crafting. Everything else is just new recipes.
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2 hours ago, Novamourne said:
This is that age old "just don't care about it and it will be fine" argument. The entire progression of the game is pushed on the rails of this system. If there is no need for any particular person to open any particular container then why did they put a priority drop mechanism in place? Your mentality is to prioritize the fun of looting and having a normal game play loop over progressing and growing stronger. My mentality is that I want both a normal game play loop and for that loop to not actively be hindering progression.
Sounds like a good solution on paper, sure. We tried that too but guess what, because of the priority drop system, 9 times out of 10 whoever looted the box got a magazine from it that they specifically needed unless it was a box that didn't even have a chance to drop something they needed. In that event then, why not just pass on the container?
Bottom line is that normally, I'm what my friends refer to as "First Builder" and I stay home and do the crops and base defense. I can no longer play that way as if I'm not doing quest for rewards and Im not looting containers then Im not progressing because they receive a very minimal amount of the magazines that they don't specifically need themselves
The only way you can have fun with this system is to disregard the fact that it actively harms your growth if you play normally. The min/max argument doesn't even apply here because it's not extra steps to gain "a little more." The system actively punishes you for not playing this specific way. That's not min/maxing, that's mitigating bad design.If the progression curve of the players had even the smallest chance of falling behind the progression curve of the difficulty of the game then I might agree with you that unless you prioritize the opening of containers to the best person suited to that container your progression would be hindered to the detriment of possibly losing the game and being overwhelmed by the zombies.
But both you and I know that isn't the case since it is phenomenally easy to quickly outpace what the game throws at us. If my group doesn't prioritize the opening of containers to maximize magazine distribution and just plays normally and your group does seek to maximize magazine boosts by each team member thus putting a strict limit on who opens any container then my group will be just be slightly ahead of the difficulty curve of the game while your group will be well beyond it almost from the very start. Personally, I would find your situation boring and a game of just rinsing and repeating all the activities without any challenge whereas my situation would carry risk and the possibility of being overwhelmed even if it still unlikely to happen.
I've played the game with 50% loot and still managed to keep pace with the game's difficulty progression. So the question really is why does your group feel the need to progress so quickly that you'll do it at the expense of keeping things simple and fun for everyone? If you loosened up your strict rules about who gets to open what container so that your team dynamic wasn't so complicated and unfun you'd STILL find yourselves ahead of the game progression curve. The excuse that you don't want to hinder your progression is irrelevant because you could slow your pace by quite a bit and still keep pace with the game so there isn't any effectual hinderance relative to the game in any case.
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On 9/29/2023 at 1:57 PM, Old Crow said:
It's not even beta.
It's a hybrid at this point. For simplicity's sake they won't change the name of their updates but there is no question that the current development phase definitely has elements of beta and there are precious few new core features that still need to be added.
On topic, due to the nature of the voxel terrain, they may never completely solve this issue so that players are guaranteed to never lose a vehicle as the world generates. They've reduced the use cases dramatically but it is definitely a good idea to pick up your vehicles before logging out. That being said, I've left my vehicles out parked around my base for years now and haven't lost a single one in both single and multi-player games.
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23 minutes ago, Krougal said:
Well maybe we all just throw the jars and shatter them like we're at a never-ending Jewish wedding and then have nothing to reuse.
Mazal Tov!
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They're working on a pop-up message that will remind you periodically to remove any empty cups or mugs you might have on your desk near your monitor because they don't want empty containers in the game or near the game.
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20 hours ago, Kalen said:
Have to disagree strongly here. At least for me. To me, its about realism.
I get it that it is about realism but my point is that when we purchase a game and encounter its rules for the first time we tend to accept them as the way that game plays. I'm willing to bet that if you found this game today and purchased it and played it you would probably think that it was weird that water could not be gathered but you also probably would have quickly accepted it as a quirky limitation imposed by the developers-- especially if you felt that overall it was a fun game. The main source of fuel for the debate is the fact that it was one way and now it is another and people who experienced both and liked the original way care enough to bring it up.
Now, on the other hand, I'm willing to admit that if TFP changed it back to us being able to gather water from water sources probably few to none of the new players who have only known the A21 ruleset would complain about suddenly being able to gather water and getting empty jars back after drinking. 🤣
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There are tons of games that all handle water survival differently. Some even ignore water and thirst altogether. Any time I approach a game in the survival genre I figure out what the rules are and then adopt those in my gameplay and survival strategies. Very rarely have I seen a game that makes all survival features hyper realistic. The issue that is really going on here is that there are some long-time players who were used to the old mechanics and found the new mechanic jarring compared to the old. That's the entire reason for the debate.
Most new players won't reject the game or proclaim it not survival because of how jars are represented or that there are limitations imposed on gathering water. They will simply come to figure out what the mechanic is and then adopt the game's reality into their personal gameplay. Some will make connections in their mind to explain why it is the way it is to help their own immersion and others won't even think about it once they understand how it works.
Inventory is a great example of something that people joke about how unrealistic it is but nobody really expects it to conform to reality. In fact, many double down and install backpack enlargement mods so they can push things to even greater unrealistic proportions. I wonder how many people complaining about the lack of empty jars and how it is unrealistic that we can't gather water into containers from lakes currently have a backpack mod installed...
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I'm pretty sure looting toilets for water is more of a funny gag than an attempt to realistically mirror the evaporation state of water tanks after 6 months of inactivity.
I agree that murky water in loot is too high. It was originally lower before the release and I don't know whether someone panicked at the last minute about possible death spirals due to thirst and so upped it to make things more forgiving but it sure seems like the need to drink from ponds, rivers, and gutters was real and a dew collector was a must in the pre-release version and now they seem optional to just scavenging POIs for all you really need.
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Diablo is basically a university degree program in min/maxing. It promotes it, rewards it, and there are zero drawbacks to doing it with that game. In fact, it is required in order to keep progressing in the game from quest to quest without having to stop and grind on lesser dungeons for awhile in order to get your character up to scratch for whatever your current quest is.
7 Days to Die is not designed for min/maxing. It allows it but most who do it quickly feel unsatisfied and bored since the game's difficulty curve is so easily maintained without particularly focusing on min/maxing. In addition the progression ladder is much shorter than Diablo so min/maxing will get the player to the end of 7 Day's content extremely fast and then it is just the same thing with nothing new to strive for all the time.
You CAN play 7 Days to Die like Diablo but people should be mindful of what results they want to get and understand that 7 Days to Die questing and dungeon delving does not have to be played similarly to Diablo at all. Do it if it brings you joy but stop it if it frustrates you and makes the game end too quickly.
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They're hoping we will count A22 development from the day they start the A22 dev diary so they can come in under a year...
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43 minutes ago, eganonstwr said:
Im done with this community ahahahahah what a funny guys i guess ill have to find a way to talk to devs directly
IMPORTANT!!!!! good luck.
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Learn by doing/reading/leveling can be merged.
in General Discussion
Posted
There it is right there. You may have to loot a lot in the first two weeks to get yourself established with water and some decent tools but are you starting over after only the first two weeks? Is the first two weeks really the length and breadth of your entire playthrough? Given that you also believe that it is a must to double dip bookstores and other tactics like that is it really taking a full two weeks to get yourself to the point where you can shift into high gear with building? I don't think so.
For myself, I do a combination of base building and looting throughout the early game. But even if I ignored building altogether, I would have my water needs and tool needs handled within the first couple of weeks like you and then be able to focus on building to my heart's content the rest of my playthrough which would still tip the amount of time spent building in building's favor if that was my greatest love.